January 23, 2007
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To be or not to be… modest. And what does that mean?
I just completed a 150 question modesty survey over the weekend. Their goal, I believe, is to facilitate dialogue between men and women regarding modesty and what can be stumbling blocks to men. The majority of the questions asked in this survey had to do with clothing, jewelry and makeup, with only two or three questions asking about posture and poses.
My discussion question for today is, how important is modesty to you? What do you consider to be modest or immodest? Is modesty relevant to society anymore? Lastly, how does modesty apply to men and women today?
In related news: Go see ChrisRusso’s 4th annual romance debate.
In somewhat related news: Greekphysique is blasting eharmony regarding potentially immoral advertising promises and the dangers implicit in looking to an online dating service to solve the “I’m single” problem.
In totally unrelated news: I decided, on a whim, to learn how to use my left hand. That is, I am practicing to become ambiguous.
Comments (34)
I consider Speedos to be immodest, and I refuse to wear them. I also do not wear midriff-baring tops or short-shorts.
(Oh, BTW, I may be slightly later than normal tonight.)
I think when you’re modest, you’re seen as the type of person who is marriage material. If you are not modest, you’re only good for a fling (or not good at all). I”ll have more comments when I see other people comment.
hi alban, how are you? here is a post from my friend at IHOP BL78, about sam brownback. I emailed my friend, & he clarified that it was never a formal prophecy, but rather something that may happen. Just to keep an eye out. hope you’re well~
Bah! So many interesting discussions all at once, and myself too tired to be coherent. I’ll respond later.
Ladies Against Feminism recently had a similar discussion. All I have to say is this: I absolutely refuse to wear jumpers, no matter what the survey reveals. Modesty does not have to be ugly. I’m willing to start wearing veils if need be, though.
^^^Isn’t it odd how guys’ fashion is very modest (baggy, slouchy, loosefitting jeans and t-shirts), and then there’s the speedo? It is as bad or worse than any female bikini. Especially as it’s only encountered on the bodies of old, overweight, hairy men at the public beaches. I have to turn bright red and avert my gaze.
I think displaying modesty is important because it is a courtesy to the people around you. Being immodest makes people think about sex, and people think about that enough as it is, they don’t need your help.
Bokgwai, that survey didn’t include anything about speech did it. Modesty in fashion is the big topic today, because the fashion industry has pushed the issue for us, but I think that modesty in speech is just as important.
While I do believe that modesty is important, I don’t really know what stumbles a guy specifically. Generally, yes. So what I deem “modest” may be “immodest” to a guy. Rather clueless in this area, I’m afraid.
haha~ i posted a response under your comment. how are you doing, bro? i haven’t read “Pilgrim’s Progress” yet, but I keep hearing that it’s a must read.
this reminds me of a discussion I was having with my sister last night – we were watching Jennifer Garner on Jay Leno and commented on how the dress (a short, sleeveless, slightly lowcut satiny affair that could have doubled as lingerie) would have looked very slutty on anyone else, but since Ms. Garner was not crossing and uncrossing her legs, sitting with her chest jutted out and acting in a manner typical of female celebrities, it actually didn’t look immodest.
I think this can be true of a lot of women – the intention behind wearing what we wear can be as provacative as the clothing itself. if a woman is specifically dressing to bring attention to herself by showing more leg or chest or stomach than is appropriate, then that comes across in her posture, behavior and attitude. same holds true for a guy- if he is wearing that tight shirt cuz he knows he’s got “it”, that is also very apparent in his manner. it’s very easy to focus on clothing itself, but we need to address someone’s heart behind why they are wearing what they wear.
That said: I’m sick to DEATH of seeing women’s love handls and butts and thongs hanging out the back of their too-low rise jeans. i want to gouge out my offended eyes. blech. all I have to say to women: put it AWAY. you ain’t sexy honey, you’re trashy.
Heh, Alban, haven’t you figured out yet that I won’t link back to you and start a blog war? I’ll just take the traffic you give me and make smarmy comments in the comment section without giving you any traffic back. MWAHAHA! No, seriously, once you post something worthwhile, I’ll give you some linkage love.
And I just realized…you kind of had done so with your music post. I’m nice (implying of course, that I’m nicer than you, scumbag :-p), so that’ll be good enough for now.
Kalyn and Spokenfor – I agree very much so with your comments regarding modesty in speech and posture. I took note that the questions were mostly about clothes, but I think there is more to modesty than just what people wear. A person can be suggestive, tempting, and all around immodest in the way they talk, pose, or even walk…. and I purposely left “person” as gender-ambiguous. I had a conversation with a friend the other day that went something like this:
Her: I spilled my guts in that letter. I told him everything.
Me: Don’t send it. No matter what.
Her: Why not?
Me: Because you’re sending him mixed messages. You say you want to be just friends, but you tell him that you still have a strong sexual desire for him.
Her: What’s wrong with that? Sex is a beautiful thing.
Me: It CAN be a beautiful thing, but you don’t have to tell him about it. Be modest.
Her: Why?
Me: Because you want to be a lady.
Some things just do not need to be said. Even if the intentions seem innocent on the surface, I believe underneath, there is a desire to be noticed, to be discovered, and to be wanted and pursued. It is my personal belief that men and women act immodestly or do things to be noticed by the opposite sex out of a desire to be loved. I think it stems from brokenness.
But yes, I agree with what you’re saying about modesty being about more than just clothes. There are plenty of ways to be immodest in an attempt to capture someone’s attentions.
^”Even if the intentions seem innocent on the surface, I believe underneath, there is a desire to be noticed, to be discovered, and to be wanted and pursued…….I think it stems from brokenness.” Well spoken. I agree wholeheartedly. And the irony is that while the person is looking for that affirmation and fulfillment, it only leads to more confusion and hurt.
that’s interesting because we talked about modesty/immodesty this past sunday at church.
hmm…where did my comment go?
eh…oh well.
I don’t think we can adequately discuss how women should dress without discussing the clothes available to them. Look at the fashion industry and the clothes available for women to purchase…show me a pair of nonstretchy, non low-rise, non butt flattering jeans and you’ve got yourself a sale. I look for the least flattering clothes to wear to work (especially when I’m working out of our power plants, where it’s 90% male workers).
I agree that we don’t dress on accident and that when we do dress, we do so as a reflection of ourselves and,in the case of immodest dressing, our unmet needs and desires (attention, validation, wanting to be liked/loved, etc). BUT there is also the culture imposed upon us by society…the clothing available for us to buy is almost always revealing or flattering in some way or another. I’m even more disturbed by this when I walk past stores focused on young girl clothing…and the clothing looks like stuff that even teenagers shouldn’t be wearing.
as far as poses and talk… I haven’t thought about that in the context of modesty…I’ll have to marinate on that for a little while.
good discussion.
Wingfea, you make a good point in saying that how we dress is somewhat limited by what our clothing options are. If you’re looking for clothing that’s neither revealing nor flattering, that will be quite a hunt indeed. However, I don’t think that flattering necessarily goes hand-in-hand with immodesty. You may choose to buy a nice empire-waist dress over a straight-line dress because the cut looks better on you. That doesn’t mean you’re being immodest. You may also choose to buy a blue shirt over a light pink one because pink does not flatter your skin tone. Being modest does not preclude looking nice.
Yeah, you know, when I was taking the survey, I felt compelled to explain my answers (there was an option to do so), because there is certainly a difference between immodest and beauty. There are some dresses that can be flattering and beautiful without being immodest or prone to inspire impure thoughts. The same can be said of pants and shirts, etc. There are elegant clothes, business clothes, lounging around clothes, etc. I think a person can look good buying something at the right size, rather than intentionally buying something a size too small, you know what I mean? I agree with you that there are limitations on the choices, but some women tend to think that if it isn’t sexy, it’s ugly… and that is completely untrue. Something to think about, I guess.
Huzzah for Alban! Sexy and Beautiful are not one and the same. I’ve been saying that for years, and it’s so nice to hear someone agree . . . especially since the two are frequently equated for the modern fashionable girl/woman.
I must take umbrage with the way the word “sexy” is being used. I don’t think sexy and immodest are synonymous–elegant can be sexy. In fact, to my way of thinking, tight sweatpants with the word “juicy” written across the seat are far from sexy, while broomstick skirts are very much so.
This has been a Linguistic Public Service Announcement.
Hello Alban, I’m Maie. glad you came over to say hello!
“Be modest because you want to be a lady…” that is a good point, but unfortunately, it is a path that very few of the younger generation of girls want to follow. I am afraid for my little sisters, but at the same time I am glad that they are getting the values at home that they should be getting. I think my parents did a pretty good job with me, and parenting only gets better with time, so after 19 years, they should really have the “raising children to respect themselves” thing down.
I consider myself extremely modest. No, I don’t adhere to the UPC tradition of long skirt/long hair, but I am careful in what I choose to wear. I think it might be because I was raised with three brothers, all younger. It really gets under my skin when I think of all the things my brothers face in being more visual creatures than myself. All right, so I am overprotective, but so what? It was also instilled in me that what I think and the person I am are infinitely more important than my looks. That is hard on a pre-teen (to post-teen! to twenty something!) girl, but as my mom always said “You can’t rely on a nice smile to get you out of everything, Maie!”
Zedenia pointed out that when you are modest, you are marriage material, when you are immodest you are fling worthy. After years of secretly suspecting that, I’m am glad someone else brought it up.
Thanks for stopping by my post. I suppose it loosely connects to the whole modesty ideal. Social conventions tell us what is “pretty” (high heels!) and “sexy” (high heels!) and “powerful” (high heels again!). If the shoe is comfortable, wear it. If you like it personally, do your thing. But if whalebone corsets and foot binding are things of the past, I hope the whole high heels obsession will somehow fade into history books as well. There are a lot of things I hope will fade out like that.
By the way, I didn’t really suspect you as being a supporter of foot binding, past or present.
I want to hear about how you invented the wok.
Well, just to be pugnacious I would like to say that I don’t really want to base my modesty decisions on a poll of men. What do they know about wearing women’s clothing?
A women knows when she is dressing whether she is modest or not. If she is selecting clothing to emphasize her sex appeal, then her attitude and posture will reflect that. If she is selecting clothing for another reason, even when the same clothes are chosen, she will be modest.
I think modesty is entirely dictated by attitude and the restraints of the culture. In Spain, it is common for a woman to wear a tube top. Even the news anchors and professors wear them. In Honduras, if you are not wearing a sleeveless shirt that is two sizes smaller than an American woman would think she needed, people think you are dressing strangely. And, (whoa is me) northern women have an entirely different opinion of modesty and think southern women in their daily dress look cheap and flashy.
I think it is fairly obvious when a particular woman is making an effort to be modest within the dictates of her culture, and I think it is entirely up to the woman to do so. And, men should not make blanket statements about these women.
*tbbpt* –>
^I’d like to award jalixx3 an honorary eProp for using the word pugnacious.
Go with the three B’s. Butt, belly and boobs. I don’t want to see them on anyone. And I sure don’t anyone to see mine. And I am sure no one wants to see mine. There is no modesty these days. What’s sad is even at church you see “girls” wearing things are should not be worn at church. the beach maybe. I don’t think that women need to wear dresses like the Mennonites or Church of Christ, but I will say this they are modestly dressed. So who is to say, I would rather go with being on the safe or modest side. God bless. Dawn
RYC at the Theologian’s Cafe: “Honestly, I don’t see how this is any different than muslims who bribe children with candy to convert to Islam. I guess the biggest difference is that when muslims try to walk away from Islam, they get killed.”
I don’t see how it’s any different from the Inquisition. Or the Crusades. Or the Westboro Church as of recent.
“Well, just to be pugnacious I would like to say that I don’t really want to base my modesty decisions on a poll of men. What do they know about wearing women’s clothing?” –Jalixx3
Nothin’. Though we do know a whole lot about watching them. And also about what’s covered (or isn’t) when the woman’s bending down, or sitting with her legs crossed, ect., in individual outfits. A woman might wear the same clothes without the intent to enhance her sex appeal, but the same clothes show the same amount of skin. (And no, I’m not saying it’s the woman’s responsibility to keep men from lusting–that’s the extreme Muslim stance, and it’s re-duck-ulous. But all the same she should be aware of it as a factor.)
So I wouldn’t entirely discount the opinions of polls of men. We might (hopefully) not have much experience in wearing such clothes, but we all remember our girl-watching tricks from our adolescent years. (Like wearing sunglasses so they can’t see where your eyes are at.) Just… don’t make it harder on us than it has to be.
Besides isn’t “Men shouldn’t make blanket statements…” a blanket statement?
And Alban, don’t you mean ambidextrous?
1) I do not know what pugnacious means, and I haven’t had an opportunity to look it up yet.
2) The survey actually surveyed men AND women. I believe they surveyed many hundreds (if not thousands) of women first before the men even caught on. It seems to be an important issue for women for them to jump on it so quickly. Like I said, it was meant to open dialogue between men and women. I suspect that some of the (optional) comments that were submitted along with the answers will be published at some point in time.
3) Yes. I did mean ambidextrous. I think that was supposed to be a joke. It’s kinda sad that it took 28 comments to pass before someone even noticed it (and said something about it). My subtle jokes will have to be less subtle in the future. Or not. I’m not sure if I’m ready to give up on them yet.
Undamage, I have a response for you soon.
I noticed it, guffawed, took it for the joke it was and moved on. hm…maybe Chris doesn’t get your style of humor? haha.
chris, i came her in total faith that you would catch ambidextrous… although practicing to be ambiguous with my left hand is an interesting mental image.
speaking of image… i read a fictional acccount of the revolution in iran once. it included this idea, i don’t know if it’s accurate, that a woman had to cover herself in order to protect man from his frenzied sexual urges. basically, if a woman wearing lipstick, or showing her wrists was sexually attacked, it was her fault for whipping them up in the first place. that’s an extreme example, but i think that kind of mentally is the subcontext of some thinking about modesty… it certianly was in ancient christian texts on the subject. that woman was some kind of radio active isotope that needed full lead screening to keep the moral character of men from breaking down. it is certainly not just what women wear, but the attitudes of men around them. discipline on both sides is called for.
Thanks for stopping by!
Yep, I was getting pretty good with my knives when I had a chance to practice–which was ages ago. Now I’d probably be lucky if they hit the ground.
As for modesty–a girl can be immodest wearing a burlap sack, if she wants to be. Though what you’re wearing is part of it, how you’re wearing it is just as important. Attitudes can be immodest, along with the clothing. I’m not saying this means you can wear whatever you want as long as your attitude’s okay–obviously some things are immodest no matter what. But I think a girl who is mentally in the right place is going to feel uncomfortable wearing immodest stuff anyway.
I know what pugnacious means because I looked it up in the dictionary KalynaLaMode gave me. I looked it up because sonnetjoy says it 97 times per day.